Welcome, everyone to the Discover Your Kinky Self Podcast. I’m your host, Femme Fatale, and I’m here on behalf of Arouser to interview sex chat hosts and Sexologists and Sex Experts from all around the world. 

Today we have the lovely Anna Kjellberg here from South Africa. She is a registered Sexologist and Psychologist, and she recently did an amazing scientific study with us here at Arousr, based on data we gave her from our chat hosts directly in regards to sex workers motivations in the adult entertainment industry. 

We had some really interesting findings that you may or may not know or have thought about. Our main theme today is is sex chat cheating or not in a relationship? And we’re going to be referring to Anna’s professional background with clients. 

And also in regards to our scientific study, we’re going to be pulling data from there to give you some great resources, and also answers to some questions you may have around shame and stigmas associated with using sex chat as a service, or being a sex chat worker or a sex worker in general. Anna, thank you so much for joining us!

Anna: Hi. Thank you for having me. Thank you for providing me this amazing opportunity to interview and ask questions about their motivation to engage in sex. With your chat host.

F.F: You’re welcome. So the first question I have for you is what is your professional background and why did you enter the world of sexology as a psychologist?

Anna: Thank you for the question. Well, my first career I worked as a human resource manager, and then I was in the management of a high tech company. Um, and later on I decided to study psychology. And when I was thinking, what is my specialization? I wanted to find my niche. And I was thinking this. No, that no sex. Oh, yes. Um, the reason for that is that I come from a very sex positive family. You know, um, when my granddad became a widower, he soon after started to date another woman. And I remember I was a teenager and he came for one of the family dinners. He opened the door and I could see his eyes beaming. He was like, literally shining. And he said, you know what? I still can. And the entire family was saying, yeah, here you go, old man. And the thing is that I was a teenager. I haven’t had sex myself at that time, but eh, I knew what he was referring to and b, I was proud of him. And so like I come from a family where I haven’t, like, I haven’t seen anything that I shouldn’t see. But I come from a family where sex was seen as something positive. It was something that was like literally my parents were very supportive in this. And so and this led me to becoming a psycho sexologist, someone who works with clients whose main issue is sex or sexuality related.

F.F: That’s awesome. A very organic way to find yourself into that industry, which is pretty cool. Next question we have then is what can men specifically we’re speaking to our male audience right now. What can men take away from the scientific study you did with us in regards to paying for sex work to fulfill their needs online?

Anna: Yeah, that’s a very good question. Thank you. Well, you see, in my study where I was asking chat hosts about their motivation, two motivations to engage in sex, both with their clients that are virtual partners and their real life partners. I found out that pay is only number six among the motivators to engage in sex with their clients and all other reasons like pleasure, physical desirability, self esteem, boost. Because you know, self like sex can be a very can, can have a very positive effect on our self-esteem or stress release. All of these motivators were mentioned more often than than pay. And I was thinking to myself, as I mentioned, I have my my, my first career is was in HR and I was thinking to myself, how come like. You know how to explain it , in the developed world, financial compensation alone  is insufficient to ensure job satisfaction and motivation.

For instance, just as in any other profession, I’ll say as a university professor or a health care professional, it’s not enough to be compensated alone. You are looking for other motivations. And so it’s essential to recognize that sex workers who have voluntarily chosen this profession are also influenced by a myriad of factors that go beyond monetary compensation. Right. And here we’re, of course, talking about developed countries where sex work is a choice, not where they are coerced. You know, like we are not talking about sex trafficking or something like this. And so while many people perceive sex with a sex worker as primarily transactional, my findings have emphasized the depth and diversity of experiences that can arise from this encounters.

You know, when we recognize that these interactions can extend beyond a mere transaction, like it opens the door to a more fulfilling and enjoyable experience, both for the client and for the sex worker. Right. So understanding that chat hosts are motivated by a myriad of reasons, such as like the ones that I’ve mentioned or say, emotional connection or personal exploration man can create or like wouldn’t even send men like the users of the service can create a more meaningful and satisfying experience for all parties involved. What do you think?

F.F: Absolutely. I mean, it removes the shame and stigma around it, which is what we try to do. On the discovery of kinky self podcasts is just humanize all these events that happen online because they’re they’re interfacing with their needs through another human at the end of the day, and whatever those needs are, as long as they’re safe, sane and consensual, it shouldn’t be frowned upon or seen with or met with shame and stigma. So I think that’s very well explained. And thank you very much for that point. I hope that helps our listeners feel more seen and heard in this show today. The next question we have for you is what do you oh, this is a great one. What do you think about the stigma associated with infidelity in relationships when one partner seeks out sex work services online?

Anna: Yeah, it’s not that easy. It’s not that straightforward. So now I’ll talk from my perspective as a practitioner. As a therapist. Um, I work a lot with non-monogamy, whether consensual or non-consensual, and I frequently see clients where one of the partners secretly engaged with other partners without primary partners being aware. And so one of the very common representations is where one of the partners was frequenting a sex worker. And a couple would usually come seeing my assistants to address issues related to exposure and the breach of trust. And usually while the partner who was cheated on, they would feel no pain, they would feel hurt, and the sense of loss of trust and all of these emotions.

However, we shouldn’t forget also about the partner who has actually cheated because these people would usually experience immense shame and guilt. And in my in, in my other studies, I have found out that it’s quite seldom that people cheat because they are lacking something in their primary partner. Usually when they engage in sex work with someone else, it’s more about their own exploration. They are looking to experience a certain feeling or emotion when they are. When they are looking for someone else, they usually would like. Like when they are lacking something in a relationship, they would start looking for someone else. But when they keep the relationship, the primary relationship, it means that they are generally happy with the relationship they have and they are having that another relationship or a sexual encounter for different reasons. And the reasons are very unique and like different individuals would come with different reasons, but just a recent one and quite a common one.

I’ve had a couple where he explained the male partner of the couple who has engaged in sex with multiple sex workers and was exposed and were coming to me with his wife for therapy. He explained that it is his way how to deal with stress, how to lower anxiety. He was telling me that the anticipation of the encounter and the actual encounter are the moments when he feels like he doesn’t feel that much stress. He is his calmest moments. It’s almost like his brain is taken away to a fantasy world. And while there are many ways to deal with anxiety and stress, this is one of them. So, you know, there are many ways to see it, right? Have I answered your question? Is there something else you would like me to elaborate on?

F.F: I think that’s perfect to show so people can see that it shouldn’t have to be a dirty secret. Also showing the complexity of relationship dynamics. Nothing is black and white even in a monogamous relationship. There are definitely, definitely different colors, tones, shades, and feelings happening there because every relationship is super unique to every partnership. So whether it’s monogamy, non-monogamy, polyamory, it’s all unique to everybody. So it’s for them to make their own rules and not feel like they have to go by a set set of rules pre-made for them to fulfill society’s expectations of them. And I think you flesh that out really well there in that response.

Anna: Absolutely. And you know what? Monogamy and non monogamy as such shouldn’t be seen as black and white. Instead look at that as a continuum. You know there are different shades of gray. And if you prefer violet or orange or blue, whatever, you want it. Right. You know, so some, some people would see like, first of all, what is monogamy? Monogamy. This is when you have one partner for life. How many of us do this? Very few assume. Then there is serial monogamy. This is when you have a monogamous relationship with one person. Then you break up with them and you have a monogamous relationship with another person. And then there are monogamous relationships where you would allow non-monogamous, like a bit of non-monogamy, monogamy, non-monogamy to some extent, or don’t see don’t tell where both partners are actually aware that there is something happening. But they don’t discuss it. They don’t share it. They never address it. Right. And then there are a lot of like, more specific and nuanced arrangements when, say, we are monogamous when we are under the same roof.

But it’s okay for me to engage in some with someone when I’m on business trips or when I’m traveling or one night stands don’t count or say if it’s the same person that I dated when I was in high school, then it also doesn’t count or say like, you know what? What I also experienced in my practice is that a couple where one person is kinky and the other person is vanilla, and usually these are relationships that are like where people are together for many years and then after years in relationship, one partner would discover that they are kink inclined. They would agree to some sort of agreement that generally sex is like is reserved as the primary diet for the couple, but one of the partners who are kinky, they can experience some aspects of King with someone else, whether it’s physical or online, as in your case. So it’s not that black and white. There are so many nuances and I can talk about the nuances for hours and hours and hours.

F.F: It’s a great way to show other people too. If they do have a partner who is more vanilla and they are more kinky, then that should. And they’re in, say, a monogamous relationship, that doesn’t mean it has to end your monogamous, monogamous relationship. It means you need a new monogamy contract, meaning what is okay and what is not okay in regards to you exploring your kink outside of me, because it makes me uncomfortable to explore kink personally. But it doesn’t mean I want to break up our relationship because of this one dynamic that may not be missing because there’s no one person that can fulfill all of your needs in any relationship ever, from friendship to sexual relationships. So it’s really healthy as adults to have those conversations and not necessarily sacrifice a great relationship just for specific needs, needs, not being able to all be met by one partner. And it shouldn’t have to be seen as cheating in order to do so. And that again, that removes some of the shame and stigma around it.

Anna: Oh, yes. Absolutely. I’m totally with you. I think the majority of couples would benefit from an explicit monogamy agreement where they discuss and agree what is allowed and what is not allowed in a relationship. And moreover, it’s also important to discuss what is the meaning of this behavior, because we will often jump into interpreting certain behavior as I’m not good enough or something like  this. This is what is really hurting for the egos and so on. And oftentimes it’s not about you, it’s about me. It doesn’t mean much to me. I just want to experience this…and why do I want to experience this? It requires a lot of self-exploration but eventually it leads to the growth of the couple and then both individuals involved. 

FF: Absolutely Anna! We’re just about running out of time here so to wrap up I have one question left for you. What is the most interesting fact you found in the scientific study you did with Arousr in regards to the sex workers motives in the industry?

Anna: What struck me most in this study is actually two things. Firstly! It’s fascinating to see that primary motivations for chat host to engage in sex chat online were strikingly similar to their primary motivation to engage in sex in real life. The main motivator to engage in sex with both groups either online or with their partners are almost identical. Seeking sexual pleasure, wanting to express their emotions to their partners, wanting to act out their sexual fantasies, seeking self esteem boosts, stress relief, and these are often associated with sex.

The second finding actually stands out from the first revelation. Money is not among the primary motivators of chat hosts when they engage in online sex work. All of us, we appreciate fair compensation for our work. It’s intriguing to know that financial gain ranks among six among the top reasons why chat hosts chose to participate in online sex. 

I think this finding challenges the common assumption that financial incentives are the primary and only driving force for sex work folks. 

FF: Absolutely! You’ve got to love your job at the end of the day regardless of what industry you’re in. That is across all industries where money is involved including sex work because sex work is work. 

Thank you so much Anna for joining us today, these are some great findings we found in the scientific study we did together. 

I highly suggest everyone check out the article. It’s posted on Arousr.com and it’s also posted on Anna’s website. We’ll have that link in the description for you. It’s an incredible article that removes a lot of the shame/stigma associated with sex workers using sex work as a way to provide a lifestyle for themselves online and also gain fulfillment in their work. 

Also, for men who seek out sex work services online so they can feel more seen/heard by exploring their needs with alternative partners anonymously, privately and safely at their own discretion. Thank you so much Anna! Can you let the people know where they can find you if they want to reach out to you for Sexology consultation or psychology?

Anna: Thank you so much for having me. I would love to hear from you even if it’s not a client application. If you have an opinion to share with me, I’d love to hear from you. Please find me at my homepage www.annakelberg.com 

FF: We will see you on the next one. Thank you for tuning in and again Thank you Anna so much for joining us today. We really appreciate you and we really loved collaborating with you on this Scientific Study!

Sources

Anna Keberg Article: https://www.annakelberg.com/blog-posts/www-annakelberg-com-blog-posts-beneath-the-surface-exploring-the-complex-motivations-of-sex-workers

Scientific Article Using Arousr Sex Chat Host Data: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2023.1173902/full